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Interview with Judge Robert Ruehlman Hamilton County Court of Common Pleas

Publisher's note: This interview was done for BlueChipReview.com in 2005. Interview by Steve Fritsch, publisher

Steve Fritsch: When you ruled that the state ban on concealed carry was unconstitutional in 2002, you had said, "everywhere carrying concealed weapons is allowed, crime seems to go down." This is factually true. However, there are still many groups of people who don't want to give this right to law-abiding citizens.

Is this an issue that the judiciary will probably be dealing with for years to come?

Judge Ruehlman: I don't know if it will or not. There haven't been too many cases resulting from the new law that was passed. I know they're going to roll back some of the things. The idea was pass the law, even though it had a lot of restrictions on it, which were not good, and then improve it. They're putting a bill in there right now to get rid of some of restrictions on verification by the press being able to find out who actually has gun permits and things like that.

It's an issue that comes up across the country occasionally. I think in Ohio it's probably pretty much run its course.

Also during that trial, after you issued the temporary restraining order barring enforcement of the concealed carry ban, then-FOP president Keith Fangman said to the press that you would have "blood on your hands" if anything happened to police officers while the restraining order was in place.

(Laughs) He has since apologized to me for that.

How do you respond when you hear that kind of blatant criticism? Is it just part of the job?

He was the president, which you know... (thinks) Actually, a lot of policemen supported my decision. They believe that law-abiding people should (be allowed) to carry guns. I think it does curtail crime, it's really curtailed crime in south Florida. With the exception of drug dealers; that (kind of) crime... drug dealers they deal in drugs, they shoot (and kill) each other; that goes on in every city. I'm talking about the burglars and the street robbers, the guys that are the bums out there just knocking people over, stealing purses. That kind of crime has gone way down.

There really needs to be some incidents (in the news) where guns are actually used to deter some of these crimes. Hopefully, somebody does save them self from a bad crime by using a gun.

Well, the NRA has statistics every year that show thousands of people prevent major crimes by using a firearm. In fact they have a column in their monthly magazine depicting stories of people protecting themselves from crime with firearms. But it just does not seem to get into the mainstream press.

Yeah, I read that NRA column. That's a good column. The NRA is a great organization, but they need to change their image a little bit. They need a good PR person there. They need a spokesman different then Wayne (LaPierre). Wayne comes across too uppity and stuck (on himself). They need just a regular, all-around guy to get out there and be their spokesman. They have this woman that's in there now they're trying to soften up, she does a lot of stuff (for them), but still the head needs to be real media savvy. Well, not just media-savvy, but comes off like a regular person.

Do you think Charlton Heston came across that way?

Well, I don't know. I like Charlton Heston a lot, but he's pretty conservative, and he came across that way. You need more of an average regular guy.

So average people don't look at the NRA as a real right-wing organization?

Yeah, because I don't think it is a right-wing organization.

You mentioned in the Enquirer last week that penalties should be tougher for those who intimidate witnesses. Can you elaborate on the problems this causes to trials and the justice system overall?

There have been a number of cases recently where people haven't show up as witnesses. That's a real problem in the system. And they are intimidated and bought off. That's bad, we can't have that. Whenever you start fiddling with the administration of justice -- intimidating officials, killing judges or intimidating witnesses -- you'll (end up having a) lawless society. You won't have a society that's a safe society. You'll have warlords running around running things. That's not good; we can't have that at all.

In fact, (state senator) Patty Clancy was listening to my radio broadcast and called me right after I got off the radio, and told me that (the legislature) put together a bill they're trying to get passed which would increase the penalties for intimidation of a witness and make it mandatory time. And then for the intimidation of a witness of a murder, they took my idea, that possibly if not life in prison it would be a felony in the first degree and carry up to ten years in prison.

So it happens quite a bit?

It has. Yeah, Judge (Patrick) Dinkelacker just two weeks ago with that fifteen-year-old; none of the witnesses showed up. He had to have them arrested. I was just affirmed on a case they had last year where some drug dealers were just sitting around and one decided to kill the other one. They needed the other guy to testify. He didn't want to testify. They actually had to arrest him. The police went out and kind of tricked the guy, saying they wanted to talk to him about something else, and when he showed up they arrested him and locked him up. Then on the day of the trial I brought him down. He was locked up for about a week till he had a chance to testify and then he got done testifying and I let him go. I told that to the jury to. The defense attorney wanted that brought out, so I said, "Fine, I'll bring it out. He was locked up because he didn't show up."

Are there any other crimes that stick out in your mind that need to have tougher sentences as well? I know you just finished the Stephen Hill case. The sexual predator cases are ones to me that are just not tough enough.

Well, of course, I got that Hill case (when it) was already plea-bargained out. There was a lot to that case with the prosecuting witnesses... All I did was the sexual predator (part)...

But here's the problem in the state of Ohio, and (the state legislators) should probably deal with this. It's in the paper today again. These sentencing guidelines are being struck down in federal courts; sentencing guidelines are being struck down in the state (courts). We should go back to the old system of sentencing, where we didn't have the sentencing guidelines, and these rapists, burglars and bad guys, there's a long list of them; entail time is 15 to 25 years (in prison). And they can get out early if they behave themselves if you get a 5 to 25, they can get out in two years. Or they can end up doing a full 25 years if they don't behave themselves. It (provides) much better control over prisoners and it's a much better system. And it needs some really draconian penalties for some of these child abusers, because they need to be locked up forever.

In your last death penalty case in 1998, you said some things that were very blunt and direct to the man whom you gave the ultimate penalty (Rayshawn Johnson was convicted of first-degree murder for robbing and beating to death Shannon Marks in East Walnut Hills). You told him that he deserved to be executed "quickly," and he deserved "no mercy" from the court.

Well, you know, the guy they executed today (William H. Smith), (lots of people) forgot about it. I had to go back in my memory; the guy they executed today, that happened almost twenty years ago. It's like, who's still around to remember what he did you know? And (the death penalty) is supposed to be a deterrent? I don't know, it takes so long...

I mean I put a serial murderer on death row in 1983 as a prosecutor, a guy named Beuke. That might be a good case to look into because that's an interesting case. He was a hitchhike murderer. We know he shot and killed, we think, three people; shot two other people who survived. He was going to shoot another person, when a policeman at the scene questioned him, and he was going for the gun, and when the policeman (arrested him) it ended up being the same gun he used in the other shootings. But the problem was, two of the shootings, one in Indiana and one in Kentucky, the police messed up the crime scene. It was done in a small town. So we didn't prosecute in those cases. But we nailed him for one murder, and two other shootings, and got the death penalty.

But, the one victim's wife was actually pregnant at the time of the murder. That kid has been born, born in '83; that kid is 22-years-old and she's graduated from college. And (Beuke) still hasn't been executed yet. I don't know what's taking so long on him. There have been a number of them I have (put) on the death row.

Well, people do complain a lot that executions take so long to finally come about. Can you give a brief explanation, in layman's terms, on how the whole appeals process takes place?

Well, it used to be (a person) would be convicted of aggravated murder and get the death penalty. And then they appeal to the first district court of appeals, and then they got to appeal to the supreme court of Ohio. Then, they would sue in Federal court, under habeas corpus, saying the State violated your Constitutional rights. They would come up before a Federal magistrate and have a hearing. Then he would make a decision. The Federal district court judge would affirm it. Then they go to the sixth circuit court of appeals, this is on post-conviction. This is after they have already spent three or four years in the state appeals court and state Supreme Court. So now you are about seven or eight years out, and after they go to the sixth circuit, then they go to the Supreme Court of the United States. Then you start over again filing appeals.

Beuke is still going through post-conviction stuff.

What they did now in Ohio, they would go back to trial court. Back to the first district court of appeals on post-conviction, saying they didn' get a fair trial. And then they go back to the supreme court of Ohio. So they've been to the supreme court of Ohio twice now. Then, they file habeas corpus in federal court. Then it's reviewed by the Federal District Court, the Circuit Court and then the Supreme Court.

How many times can you go through that appeals process?

Well, it changed. Now, if you are convicted of aggravated murder you get an appeal to the Supreme Court. The case goes directly to the Supreme Court.  You get an automatic appeal; you can't say, "Well, I don't want an appeal." (The murderer) can't do that so he can be a martyr. They want to avoid that problem, of guys wanting to be martyrs.

Then also you have to bring all the collateral attacks on your trial; council was ineffective, all that stuff, right in that appeal. That cuts out a lot. It speeds it up a lot. And then you have the chance to file to go through Federal District Court, go in front of the Magistrate, then the first district court and then the sixth district court of appeals and then the Supreme Court. But it's going to go a lot faster now.

So it's knocking off a couple years?

It has. There have been a couple of them that have been executed (because of this process). Beuke just happens to be sitting. Sometimes you get a judge... it depends on what judge you get. If you get a liberal judge who doesn't like the death penalty, then they'll just let (the cases) sit on their desk. (Beuke) is an open-and-shut case, however.

The U.S. Supreme Court recently prohibited minors from getting the death penalty...

Well, that's not an issue in Ohio. We don't have it in Ohio. In Ohio, we decided to avoid that issue. And when they passed the death penalty law they said it doesn't apply to anybody who commits a crime under 18.

Is there one case that sticks out in your career that either effected you personally, or one that you'll always remember.

I get that question a lot. That's interesting.

Lee Moore.

It was a terrible case. That was a case where he was an adult, maybe 19, and he had a couple 15-year-old kids with him. And they decided to rob a person and they wanted to take the credit cards and run. But they know that if they did that the person would immediately report it and stop it. So they decided to kill the person. And they also decided to get somebody from out of town. Because then if they killed them, nobody would know they were missing for a couple days; it would give them a couple days to run with the cards. So they just waited up in Fairfield -- they lived in Mt. Healthy -- they went up to Fairfield and waited outside this restaurant and they were looking for a car with out-of-state plates; and they wanted a new car too because they wanted to ride around (in nice car) for a couple days too. So they saw this nice car pull in, had Michigan plates on it. The guy was actually a salesman from Illinois, but he worked for a Michigan corporation. He had come to Cincinnati for a funeral. Then he went to this restaurant with his friends; a nice old guy. So he comes out of the restaurant and Lee Moore and his buddies confront him with a .357 magnum. He should have just run or said, "No, shoot me here." Instead, he let's them put him in the trunk of his car.

Then they drive to Cumminsville, near the Cincinnati Sanitation Department down there. It's an area that lots of people don't know about. It's a crappy kind of area. They took him out of the car. He was begging for his life. They walked him over to this corner by a dumpster and made him kneel down and they just executed him. Then they laughed about it because the top of his head flew off. They thought that was kind of funny. Then they were pissed because they didn't get his pin number for his bankcard. That was one thing they regretted. It was really cruel.

Then, they took the car and put an old license plate on it. They drove around to (JC) Penny's and started by Starter jackets and caps and everything. Bunch of assholes, you know? So this one guy, he's looking at these kids and really wondered about (all the things they were buying). So he called up the name on the card and rang the guy's apartment in Chicago. Of course he wasn't there; he was dead. So the card was good, and decided to let them go. But he followed them out the parking lot and saw the car and then wrote down the license number. And he just kept it for his own records. Then he really forgot about it for a couple days, he just threw it on his desk.

Then one day he opens up the (Cincinnati) Enquirer and sees a picture of some guy who is missing. He was last seen in Fairfield. And he sees the guys name and he says, "That's the guy's name on the credit card that I called in Chicago." So he calls the police.

So when they start investigating, they found out these kids hit all the Penny's stores, so they have pictures of them. And they traced the license plate number back to Mt. Healthy. Luckily they dealt with Chief Schaefer, he's done a lot of homicide cases. He's a really good police chief and as a young policeman he was really good. There is a lot of homicides and bad crime in Mt. Healthy. There are a lot of assholes that live over there in one section of Mt. Healthy and College Hill.

So he knew what to do. He knew these three assholes, the two fifteen-year-olds and Lee Moore. So he went to their house and he had two Fairfield detectives with him who were "hot to trot" who didn't know what the hell they were doing. They didn't know anything about questioning people about homicides. And (Schaefer) knew this and that he would have to control them, because (Moore and the fifteen-year-olds) would lawyer up in a minute if you came onto them too strong.

So (Schaefer) was cool, he talked to them. He said, "What's going on? Whose car is this?" And then he said, "Well, I'm going to have to arrest you because this is a stolen car." Talking to them like he was their uncle. He stuck them in a police car and got the one kid to admit. Moore and the other kid wouldn't admit. But he broke the one kid; he thought it was a joke. He thought it was funny. He said, "Oh yeah, we killed him. I'll show you were he is."

So (Schaefer) takes the detectives from Fairfield and the three guys down to the street (where the body is). And the Fairfield detectives go, "This is our case. We want this case." And Schaefer says, "No, we are in the city now. You stay out of it." You want the city guys. They know what they're doing. They know how to interrogate and how to do a crime scene.

Anyways, this guy's body was in constant ice. It took four days for his body to thaw out before they could do the autopsy. But, in the mean time, they took the three to city homicide where they have real good interrogators. They separated all three of them. The one kid already admitted it, Lee Moore was a hard case, and the other juvenile was a hard case too.

The one kid just thought it was funny. He was bragging about (killing the guy). The other kid was a hard case but they broke him down. They all ended up admitting.

But what was real chilling was that the two juveniles thought it was funny. Outside the courtroom they were mugging for the cameras, they laughed and joked. That was a very chilling case.

However, the lesson is that you can't let anyone take you hostage. Take your chances (by trying to fight and escape).